all 29 comments

[โ€“]ReeveStodgers 62 points63 points  (2 children)

r/law might be interested in this as well.

[โ€“]ilikemath9999[S] 44 points45 points  (1 child)

Feel free to crosspost it if you want. I don't have enough karma for that sub yet.

[โ€“]855Delta 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Have an upvote, friend. Its not much, but you've definitely earned it here.

[โ€“]OuroborosWurm 26 points27 points  (3 children)

Does filing a complaint with the bar require you to have been a client, or can anyone flag a suspect attorney for review?

[โ€“]ilikemath9999[S] 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Anyone can file. You don't have to be a client. Most state bar associations have an online complaint form. Whether they investigate depends on the state and what evidence you include, but the door is open to anyone.

[โ€“]ButteAmerican 6 points7 points  (1 child)

You donโ€™t have to be a client to lodge a bar complaint, but I canโ€™t imagine it would go anywhere. Most bar complaints donโ€™t even raise to the level of having the attorney file a response.

[โ€“]ilikemath9999[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

You're right that most complaints go nowhere individually. But bar associations track volume. If the same attorney gets 5, 10, 15 complaints from different people describing the same pattern, that changes the calculation. One complaint is easy to dismiss. A stack of them from unrelated clients all saying the same thing is a lot harder to ignore. The problem is that most people don't file because they assume nothing will happen, which is exactly why nothing happens.

[โ€“]Joshuajword 15 points16 points  (0 children)

This is a great post. Thank you for putting this together.

[โ€“]YetiNotForgeti 10 points11 points  (4 children)

Woah. Pretty interesting. Mind sharing some of the data you have gathered?

[โ€“]ilikemath9999[S] 15 points16 points  (2 children)

I'm working on cleaning up the scripts I used and open sourcing them. In the meantime the raw data is free to pull yourself. pcl.uscourts.gov, search by attorney name, download the CSV. In one district I looked at, a handful of attorneys accounted for over a hundred cases that were filed despite a federal statute making discharge impossible.

Same names, year after year.

[โ€“]chubbysumo 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What would make discarge impossible?

[โ€“]ilikemath9999[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Section 1328(f) of the bankruptcy code. If you already received a Chapter 7 discharge within the last 4 years, or a Chapter 13 discharge within the last 2 years, a new Chapter 13 case cannot end in discharge. It's a bright line test. Three dates, one subtraction. The math either works or it doesn't.

So if someone got a Chapter 7 discharge in 2023 and an attorney files a new Chapter 13 for them in 2025, that case is dead on arrival. The client will make payments for months, the attorney collects fees, and then the case either gets dismissed or the client finds out at the end that they were never eligible for discharge in the first place.

The statute has been on the books since 2005. It's not obscure. Any bankruptcy attorney should be checking this before they file.

[โ€“]Survive1014 8 points9 points  (2 children)

My parents used bankruptcy as a financial planning tool growing up. Several times.

I vowed never to repeat their mistakes intentional life choices.

[โ€“]12baaketslaziness is a virtue 3 points4 points  (1 child)

How does that work?

[โ€“]Survive1014 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This was pre-bankruptcy reform laws in the early 2000's. But basically, they would run up massive debt and then declare BK to weasel out of their debts. My sis and I distinctly remember three times, but we believe they may be another couple out there. Looking back, it was not just bad choices, it was intentional. Theyk new they were overspending at didnt care.

[โ€“]FredegarBolger910 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I mean it fits. The whole industry around credit repair and bad credit is built around exploiting suckers who lack resources to defend themselves. Why should bankruptcy attorneys be any different

[โ€“]ilikemath9999[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The difference is that bankruptcy attorneys are officers of the court with a fiduciary duty to their clients. When a credit repair company scams someone, it's shady but it's just commerce. When a bankruptcy attorney files a case they know will fail, they're doing it under the authority of a federal court while being paid to protect someone at their most vulnerable. The betrayal of trust is what makes it worse, not better.

[โ€“]thewizzard1 1 point2 points  (1 child)

This happened to my mom in NH in the 90s. She didn't even persue, just left it as "done".... She has other financial problems, but this attoryney certainly didn't fucking help.

[โ€“]ilikemath9999[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is the thing that kills me. Most people walk away thinking it just didn't work out. They don't know to question whether the attorney actually did the job. Your mom's story is probably a lot more common than anyone realizes.

[โ€“]thehotshotpilot 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Ive heard allegations that some attorneys push clients into chapter 13 for more money when they really should be chapter 7. 

[โ€“]ilikemath9999[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's real. Chapter 13 pays the attorney more because the fees can be rolled into the plan, so the client doesn't feel it upfront. Chapter 7 is a flat fee the client pays out of pocket before filing. Some attorneys steer people into 13 even when 7 would wipe the slate clean, because the 13 fee is bigger and easier to collect. The client never knows they had a better option.

[โ€“]Quinocco 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm not doubting anything OP is saying. But my bankruptcy was awesome.

FWIW, this was in Canada, 16 years ago. I never spoke to a bankruptcy lawyer. I went straight to a bankruptcy trustee. Despite that she was formally acting for the creditors, she also gave good advice (while staying within the law) and social worked me through the process.

[โ€“]ilikemath9999[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's how it should work. The system itself isn't broken everywhere. When you have someone competent on the other side who actually does the work, bankruptcy does exactly what it's supposed to do. The problem is there's no easy way to tell the difference before you sign.

[โ€“]Kitchen-Hat-5174 0 points1 point  (1 child)

How do people get the data? Is it free public record or do you have to pay to get it?

[โ€“]ilikemath9999[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Free! Go to pcl.uscourts.gov, create an account (takes 2 minutes, no charge), search by attorney name under the bankruptcy case type. It pulls up every case they've filed. You can download the results as a CSV and open it in Excel or Google Sheets. Count the dismissals versus the discharges. 10 minutes.

[โ€“]JulesDeathwish [score hidden]  (0 children)

Personally more of a fan of Chapter 7. They push Chapter 13 on you BECAUSE you're more likely to fail. If I'm calling Game Over, it's not time for half measures

[โ€“]Kracus [score hidden]  (0 children)

Where I'm from filing for bankruptcy is a free process in terms of the assistance needed from lawyers. You do need to make payments after filing for a certain number of months however but it's generally affordable and based on how much you can pay.

[โ€“]CE2JRH 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Huh, this seems like something an investigative journalism reporter would be interested in.