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Company laid off all Recruiters, including myself. So, AMA about how companies really hire. (self.antiwork)

submitted by ContemptibleSheeter

Edit: Thank you for asking questions, I hope it was helpful for some of you. I will no longer be responding to this post. I’m sorry if I couldn’t get to your question. Take care out there.

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[–]willowdove01 820 points821 points  (43 children)

Why do they make you fill out your resume again in individual time-consuming fields? Sadism?

[–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 875 points876 points  (41 children)

Laziness, but also extreme distance between the decision maker for that, and the boots on the ground recruiters and candidates dealing with those softwares.

Hiring softwares are extremely stupid. They aren’t revenue generating tools, so the engineers building them tend to not be the best, and it’s a low priority to make them better.

So you end up with very bad user experience like having to fill out every data set even though the resume shows it. This is done because they need to create a profile for you in their applicant tracking system (or ATS). That profile will display your relevant info, and some better ones will make that data searchable or analyzable.

Ultimately, the tool sucks, no company wants to spend any money on making it better, and candidates put up with it. The good news is companies are trending away from overreliance on those tools, and slowly some startups are making hiring tools that work better, but it’s long road.

Tldr Someone has to find a way to profit off it for it to get better (and if you want a sad but true general answer for why anything in life isn’t good, there ya go).

[–]bikesexually 250 points251 points  (4 children)

I had submitted a 'word' resume to a company. They then asked me to fill out an online resume. To my surprise it have gleaned and filled in info from my 'word' resume. I had to fix a few things but it did a decent job.

So like you said, it can exist, they just don't care.

[–]ivanparas 56 points57 points  (1 child)

I keep a plain-text version of my resume just for this reason

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    [–]ZGetsPolitical 53 points54 points  (21 children)

    Tldr Someone has to find a way to profit off it for it to get better (and if you want a sad but true general answer for why anything in life isn’t good, there ya go).

    what about a universal resume format? some kind of basic defined structure that allows ATS to be fed information from a simple parsing tool that injects via an API?

    this way you create your resume via some basic web page that then parses your data into an ATS ready dataset. Incorporate this with indeed or something and you've got a nice lil system.

    again this doesn't address your biggest item which is that it's not a revenue generating service in itself. So development is pretty much not an option.

    edit: I used to work for a company that did mobile point of sale. initially we designed the software to work with one Point of Sale system. then we looked at using API pushes so we can bring our mobile tool to any API ready Point of Sale system. Same basic principles, store data and push via API into different backend databases. There are really only so many ATS database structures to meet. 80/20 rule and all (80% of ATS fall into a few major database systems, the other 20% are more one-offs)

    [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 129 points130 points  (3 children)

    The universal resume is essentially LinkedIn. Basically every ats tool is designed to integrate with LinkedIn data in some way.

    And LinkedIn sucks. They have the users, so the focus is again on profiting off that more than making the tool better. Lately they’ve focused on making it social media to generate more profit of user engagement, rather than improving the quality of the tool from a hiring/resume perspective.

    [–]Capt_Blackmooreidle 44 points45 points  (0 children)

    And Linkedin is owned by Microsoft, so dont expect them to embrace a universal format

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      [–]pqpm 34 points35 points  (4 children)

      In Europe we have the Europass template. It was meant to be a standard way of creating and managing resumes and would allow for easier machine and human to read it.

      ​

      No website properly reads it anyway, and nobody really makes a cv in that format.

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            [–]Human_Ad_7045 169 points170 points  (11 children)

            Real sorry for the layoff.

            What type of key words or phrases does the Resume tracking software look for?

            [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 234 points235 points  (10 children)

            I appreciate the empathy.

            It really depends on the industry and job. Learn the buzzwords for your group. Use buzzwords multiple times. Have a resume tailored for computers and a resume tailored for actual humans once you get to that stage.

            [–]seeking-peelers 628 points629 points  (87 children)

            1. Do computers just read the resumes and forward the ones containing the "magic" words?
            2. Do cover letters have to be so formal and traditional?
            3. Aside from applying on the job board, what else can one do for a specific role they really want thats posted? no connections
            4. How does one successfully pivot careers without connections and just through the company's career page?

            [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 1203 points1204 points  (81 children)

            1. Sometimes, yes. Most recruiting software has some kind of ai/ml attachment that highlights profiles that meet your searches. Most recruiting is done via Boolean searches, which is just asking a database to find certain terms. The ones with the most show up on top.

            2. I genuinely don’t read cover letters and don’t know anyone who does that isn’t an idiot. Use chat gpt and don’t waste your time on them. Nobody cares. They aren’t passing on you for a bad cover letter.

            3. Build connections. Employment in general is stupid. It’s the barista problem in every industry. “How can I become a barista if they only hire people who were baristas?”. That’s every job ever. You get in to the business, build connections, and go from there. It won’t be fair, or meritocratic. If your in technical work or engineering, networking is even more valuable.

            4. You probably won’t, tbh. I’ve been trying to change careers for a while. You have a better chance transferring within a company than outside a company. Small continues where you have to wear a lot of hats let’s you pretend you were something else, that’s another way. Or just straight up lie about your experience and learn as you go. Hiring is not fair, so don’t play fair.

            [–]nnamed_username 172 points173 points  (49 children)

            1. So if I just copy-pasta the advertised job description into my resume, so that all of the company's terms are found therein verbatim, would that get me to the top of the list? I'd probably reformat it some, but the phrasing/word order would be as identical as possible.

            2. Fuck cover letters.

            3. How can an introvert build connections? What behaviors of introverts have you seen succeed? What are social things that introverts can just ignore because nobody is judging them on that, they're looking at this instead?

            4. So if I created my own small little LLC or something, thus I'm wearing all the hats I want, that's totally fine and I can put that down? Like a one-man-band of business?

            [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 159 points160 points  (9 children)

            1. Kinda? Just pick what you think are the relevant buzz words for the profession and make sure you have them in there. But also, your resume shouldn’t be super bloated. Clean, simple, qualified.

            2. Agreed. Useless. Never look at them.

            3. I’m introverted too. I’m in the wrong career lol. Bottom line is grin and bear it. I am introverted but also curious. So I like to ask people questions and learn new things. People like to talk about themselves. Maybe try that. Ask questions that have numerical answers if you can’t think of an opening question. “How long have you worked here?” “How many movies do you watch a year?” “How old is your cat?”

            4. If you did that, sure. You wore all the hats, so write down the hat that’s relevant for this job. Nobody cares you did the rest, so don’t indicate you did until it comes up in an interview. Then impress with your extra qualifications.

            [–]BasvanS 80 points81 points  (7 children)

            1. The number one networking trick for introverts is that if people can talk about themselves, they’re having a good time, which reflects well on you. Other than that it costs a lot of time for everyone with low success rates, but that’s the game, and you need to play it. But now you know how to make others like you.

            [–]Couture911 72 points73 points  (2 children)

            What people will remember the most about you is how you made them feel. If you let them ramble on about their kid’s soccer game they probably walk away feeling pretty good.

            WARNING: I used this strategy and it mostly worked but bit me in the ass a little because when the coworkers came by to follow up on the little champ’s skills I stared blankly. That’s when I realized you have to pay some attention to the stuff they blather on about.

            [–]Investotron69 22 points23 points  (1 child)

            This is huge. People will happily babble on about themselves. I met with a mid level executive for a mentorship and I let him talk about himself and asked him questions about him for a bit and he loved it. He even mentioned that he rarely takes about himself much and how it was nice to be able to do so.

            One thing is to ask open ended questions that won't lead to short one sentence answers. Asking things like where do you see us going in the next 5 years? What obstacles do you think we will have in your area? Or more personal questions if you are at a point where you know them enough to do so. If they hold back a little then add I'd like to hear more on what you think about that, or something along those lines.

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                [–]lists4everything 262 points263 points  (23 children)

                FYI I had a friend that did some weird educational course that taught him database programming in a bootcamp format then taught him to fully fabricate his resume. It’s a scheme but it worked. He’d list that he’s worked for places like Verizon or Google.

                I mean he later went to jail for selling pirated expensive engineering software but the other thing worked

                [–]VHDamien 85 points86 points  (0 children)

                FYI I had a friend that did some weird educational course that taught him database programming in a bootcamp format then taught him to fully fabricate his resume. It’s a scheme but it worked. He’d list that he’s worked for places like Verizon or Google.

                These courses are offered all over the place in DC, MD, and NOVA and behave exactly as you describe. Hardcore cover the material to pass the cert and then recommend lying on your resume to get a 6 figure job ASAP.

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                  [–]FFF_in_WYfuck credit bureaus 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                  1. I don't particularly like people, but I've done a great plenty of work where the human interaction was important. There are two methods that made it easier for me:

                  a) Design a character. You can base them on a book, game, play, movie, or just design an original. Practice being this character so that you have handy mental tools to deal effectively with these interactions. You suspend 'you' and switch to on-stage mode.

                  b) Less phony - pick a small handful of topics that you enjoy. 5-6 is probably a decent set, and they need to have some diversity. Making it you 5 favorite first-person shooters is not in keeping with the spirit of the exercise. Make it 3 highly disparate things related (how ever distantly) to your work and 3 outside interests. Practice being engaging and conversant around these items so that you have a wheelhouse to operate from in social settings of any sort. Talk to yourself or pets or plants or on discord or Xbox live. Honestly, the effectiveness of this method is enhanced by faking charisma ala method a).

                  Keep in mind that at some point it is worthwhile to develop some charismatic interpersonal skills regardless of whether you find social settings taxing. People that don't like to drive should still know how, even if they don't wanna learn to change oil and rotate tires. People that own homes should know how to clean gutters and unclog drains, even if they prefer to pay to have these things done. Just adulting shit, y'know?

                  1. Legitimate and brilliant. Just be prepared for questions that cover the entire scope of creating and operating an enterprise. A version of what you don't want:

                  Q: "I see here you've put a lot of time into your business, Shit u/nnamed_username Likes To Do LLC. What was it like keeping up with the California regulatory changes that came into effect in 2018-2019? Were the mandatory changes in fee structure something you absorbed, or passed on to clients to maintain your FBOI?"

                  A: DEER IN THE FUCKIN HEADLIGHTS

                  [–]gryfter_13 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                  For every job I've ever applied to:

                  Go to company on linkedin. Find the potential direct report or hiring manager or HR. Connect and say you're interested in the job and would love to chat.

                  Even if it doesn't work out, they are now your connections and can be leveraged in the future.

                  [–]vetratten 31 points32 points  (2 children)

                  I did #1 for my wife tailored to a few preferable jobs she wanted to apply. Every single one reached out for an interview with varying degrees of response time.

                  [–]ZekDrago 30 points31 points  (2 children)

                  So if I just copy-pasta the advertised job description into my resume, so that all of the company's terms are found therein verbatim, would that get me to the top of the list? I'd probably reformat it some, but the phrasing/word order would be as identical as possible.

                  Don't change the wording at all. Just make it invisible. 0 pt font size, or white text color or something like that, and put it in the headers or somewhere that it won't interfere with your actual resume.

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                    [–]BenThereOrBenSquare 58 points59 points  (14 children)

                    I got an interview once because the HR person loved my cover letter so much. I believe you that it's not a major factor in decisions, but I would encourage people to spend more than zero energy on it. It doesn't take long to write a generic (but well written) letter with a few sentences in the beginning/end that you customize for each application.

                    [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 55 points56 points  (0 children)

                    Sure, there’s always exceptions. I generally think they are not a good investment of time. Spend minimal.

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                      [–]XediDC 11 points12 points  (5 children)

                      1. So what are the magic words to always work in?

                      [–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (3 children)

                      Look at the buzzwords included in the listing and then put them in your resume experience.

                      [–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (1 child)

                      Pro-tier move is to look up similar job descriptions at other firms and also include all of those buzzwords too.

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                              [–]DragOnDragginOn 133 points134 points  (18 children)

                              As a tech recruiter, how do you determine how to filter candidates given the subject matter is assumedly not something you know a whole lot about?

                              [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 191 points192 points  (11 children)

                              I use data to find trends of people who succeed, and look for people with those trends. For some recruiters, that never gets more complicated than searching the keywords from the job description.

                              I google a lot of terms and learn about what they mean. I follow some tech blogs and read the articles. I bought an engineering book that’s relevant for the types of engineers I hire for and try to read chapters. I don’t pretend to be an expert when I talk to candidates, but I try to be more knowledgeable than my peers. I ask hiring managers to explain their team to me the way they explain what they do a curious friend at a barbecue.

                              For most recruiters, it’s simply more efficient to search the keywords and bs their way through the rest and that’s what they do.

                              [–]DragOnDragginOn 38 points39 points  (6 children)

                              Can you explain who "people who succeed" are? What metrics do you use to determine success?

                              [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 107 points108 points  (5 children)

                              Success in the interview process. For example: I find that candidates from company ‘A’ pass our interview 25% more than average candidate pool.

                              So I go looking for more people from there. A million other iterations if the same idea. See a trend of people doing well, look for that trend.

                              [–]DragOnDragginOn 92 points93 points  (3 children)

                              That's kinda my worst fear about recruitment. It's not necessarily about the right candidate. It's about maximizing hiring likelihood / finding the extroverts who interview well. I suppose recruiters just don't have the tools to hire the best people, so not really your fault.

                              [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 107 points108 points  (0 children)

                              Most hiring processes are broken and dumb. And most companies are too bloated to ever prioritize fixing them. Hiring process matters a ton to the owners when you are tiny and every hire is absolutely essential to get right.

                              Matters a lot less once you have stable revenue streams, profit centers and cost centers. Now it’s just a cost center and nobody in charge cares beyond reducing cost.

                              So recruiters mostly end up trying to work the process rather than hire good people. Good candidates don’t matter if our process will fail them, so focus on finding people who survive the process. Not a great system. Probably a big reason why everyone hates hiring, recruiters included.

                              [–]Jeffbx 27 points28 points  (0 children)

                              Hiring employees is about risk mitigation, not finding the best possible candidate that exists.

                              Introvert vs extrovert has little to do with it - it's more to do with past history, credentials, and (if possible) a personal referral.

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                                      [–]Dreadsbo 105 points106 points  (26 children)

                                      How often is race/culture a factor?

                                      [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 309 points310 points  (24 children)

                                      Often, honestly. But Ageism is bigger. Some people hate certain races/cultures. Nearly everyone hates the old.

                                      When I worked in agency, I had some companies explicitly tell me to not bring them black people. Or some that would skirt around it and say “we don’t want urban talk here” etc

                                      I’d refuse to work on them, my boss would threaten to fire me if I didn’t…big part of why I got the hell out of there. I regret not whistleblowing. It’s everywhere, and an open secret.

                                      Specific to the tech industry; it’s almost the opposite. There is explicit discrimination in favor of hiring women, black people, and Latino people. (With minor discrimination in favor of hiring native Americans and veterans). As a recruiter I have been held to quotas to engage those groups. My quota was to ensure a certain % of applicants were self identifying as those groups. My performance was tied to that %. I’ve also worked in smaller places where that discrimination was more explicit. “Let’s pass on this resume. Oh wait, This candidate is woman? Bring them in”.

                                      [–]NonBinarySearchTree 55 points56 points  (3 children)

                                      Were you ever made to check for a candidate's age before the hiring was completed, or if you look young and don't ever disclose your age, you are good to go, as a candidate?

                                      [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 48 points49 points  (2 children)

                                      Yes, I have been asked to do that before.

                                      [–]NonBinarySearchTree 32 points33 points  (0 children)

                                      Many thanks for your responses. I know you are getting inundated with questions, but I just wanted to tell you that it's truly appreciated, and will help a lot of people here.

                                      Yes, I have been asked to do that before.

                                      Was that an exception to the rule? When managers are being ageist, do candidates generally get hired based on how young (or how "not-old") do they look, and their resume (less than 10 years displayed in their resumes, as you've stated in another post)?

                                      [–]johnwicked4 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                                      hiring women, black people, and Latino people

                                      that actually makes sense when I recall past management and recruiters/hr announce how diverse we are on multiple occasions

                                      I believe it's tied to grants and funding if you can prove this

                                      [–]TheFundamentalFlaw 22 points23 points  (3 children)

                                      What age is considered "old" for a developer?

                                      [–]k3bly 27 points28 points  (2 children)

                                      I think it depends on what sub-industry and also how old you look versus really are.

                                      In cyber security, age/seniority was valued. When I worked in Edtech, the execs valued fresh grads who didn’t know any better.

                                      [–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (4 children)

                                      So is it best to answer "I do not wish to self identify" in those application questions that are supposedly there for "research"?

                                      [–]PlantedinCA 55 points56 points  (2 children)

                                      I feel like many tech companies have a lot of lip service to recruiting black and Latino folks. But not so much to actually hiring and retaining.

                                      They really want to only hire ones that have the exact same profile as typical as the non black and Latino ones. Same schools, same degrees, same prior organizations and so on. So it really is a feedback loop of the same old biases.

                                      Usually programs to broaden sources are not resourced or funded.

                                      And retention and advancement is horrible.

                                      And it is still broken. Maybe more are getting an initial interview. But not really the offers of you don’t “meet the profile.”

                                      Especially for big tech. Basically you need to be at MAANGA/FAANG/big unicorn, educated at an Ivy/Cal/Stanford/MIT/UT/Caltech or need not apply.

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                                        [–]stedgyson 16 points17 points  (0 children)

                                        This is the real question. I've worked with people who throw away CVs because they had Indian sounding names

                                        [–]Iamdyingfromthis 283 points284 points  (1 child)

                                        r/recruitinghell they'll benefit a lot.

                                        [–]medium0rare 79 points80 points  (10 children)

                                        I interview well but don't get a lot of calls. In the past, if I get a call back, I usually get an offer.

                                        How could I game the system to improve my chances of getting on the phone with someone?

                                        [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 115 points116 points  (9 children)

                                        Get referred in. Ping people who work there directly on LinkedIn and ask for a referral.

                                        Make your resume more appealing. Make it simple, clear, qualified. Remove everything that isn’t accomplishing one of those three things.

                                        [–]Tea_RemEat the Rich 🦝 10 points11 points  (7 children)

                                        So, How would one go about “connecting” with a complete stranger at a company you are hoping to get an “in” for and have no knowledge of that person’s pull or juice within the company? Or even worse: What if they are a total douche canoe?

                                        And maybe Im not fully grasping the concept of attempting to network…. What’s in it for them to recommend you for a position? (Or Is this for companies who pay for employee referrals?) and are there any ways to connecting with someone that doesn’t seem awkward or desperate so they feel comfortable enough to respond?

                                        Im sorry if these questions seem a bit amateur…. I guess its because I genuinely have attempted to reach out to people and would always be ignored - never once! Ive even trued multiple times reaching out to the in house recruiters, and never got a single reply back.

                                        Lastly, I wanted to personally give my condolences OP in having to unexpectedly jump into this garbage fire shit storm of a job market…. I hope you can find quick, new employment that doesn’t suck the life out of you. You answering any of our questions is literally a godsend, & I literally cannot thank you enough.

                                        [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 33 points34 points  (1 child)

                                        The trick is to be doing this stuff before you need help. So you have a small relationship already, and can ask for a favor.

                                        What’s in it for them? Some companies give referral bonuses. Lots of people like to help others. Networking is a two way street. I help you today, assuming that you’ll help me tomorrow. Pay it forward. Show solidarity to your fellow worker and lend a hand when your in the position to do so.

                                        How to connect - be casual. Reference a common point between you. Bluntly ask for a connect internally. Thank them. That’s it.

                                        [–]sjunipero 11 points12 points  (2 children)

                                        When you message someone on LinkedIn and inquire about the job posted in their company and want to ask for a referral, please make sure you include a proper introduction including qualifications, a link to your work/portfolio, and a contact number. I’m currently in charge of hiring and receive a lot of messages on LinkedIn from candidates to check out their profile which most of the time is just a job and company title, then they say they wanna “learn more” about the position and company. I have no time and no interest to schedule calls or do some back and forth communication without seeing their qualifications first.

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                                            [–]DaiZzedandConFuZed 73 points74 points  (4 children)

                                            Question: what is actually validated? Are references called? Are former employers called? If so, what information is exchanged?

                                            [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 134 points135 points  (3 children)

                                            Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.

                                            If you give only company contact info (like their HR or just main number), companies will nearly always default to giving the least info possible. Dates employed, your job title, that’s it. Rarely, they will indicate eligibility for rehire.

                                            Specific people? Well, don’t ever send a name and number you aren’t certain will say great things. If you don’t have that, lie and make up a manager and have your friend do it.

                                            In the tech industry though, beware: these companies will also do backchannel references sometimes. They will ask internally who knows you, and eventually find someone who knows someone who will say what they think about you. Hard to defend against as a candidate, and very unethical for companies to do. But very, very common. Don’t make enemies, have solidarity with your coworkers.

                                            [–]Pragmatismo 43 points44 points  (1 child)

                                            can confirm. was told by the hiring manager that there is someone else there who worked with someone who knows (of) me and doesn't like me so he therefore can't hire me even though he wanted to. did my own back-channeling and confirmed this was the case and not just some line the hiring manager was feeding me.

                                            still don't know who/why they're against me. the feedback was I do great work and deliver great results, but don't hire me.

                                            [–]Geek_off_the_streets 28 points29 points  (0 children)

                                            Sounds like they are in need of a dick punch.

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                                              [–]namenottakeyet 139 points140 points  (4 children)

                                              What is considered “job hopping” now days for white collar professionals? Besides the obvious (I.e., 2 jobs in one year). How much employment change for an applicant is seen as problematic for potential employers? Is there a ratio?

                                              [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 309 points310 points  (3 children)

                                              I have seen job hoppy concerns for as high as 3 years per company, but this is relatively rare.

                                              Some companies value tenure more. Look on LinkedIn at their previous hires for the role you are going for and see how you align.

                                              Also, companies are ageist. You didn’t exist ten years ago. Your experience from back then is irrelevant. Don’t put it out there.

                                              [–]middleupperdog 35 points36 points  (1 child)

                                              does that include on linked-in? Drop off everything older than 10 years?

                                              [–]chaos0310 17 points18 points  (0 children)

                                              I stopped going further than my last 3 jobs. Never worth it to give that much information.

                                              [–]Garrden 192 points193 points  (15 children)

                                              What's a fraction of jobs that get filled by truly external candidates as opposite to employee referrals, internal candidates and those brought in by recruiters? I mean, is it even worth to apply without any inside connections?

                                              [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 304 points305 points  (12 children)

                                              It varies from company to company, but the number is very low. Applicants tend to be the lowest quality source of candidates. They tend to do worse in interviews compared to those other groups of candidates. This in turn biases hiring managers against applicants even if they are doing well.

                                              I’d say it’s still worth it to apply, but you are better off hitting up everyone you can and trying to get referred.

                                              [–]Garrden 83 points84 points  (4 children)

                                              Thank you! This confirms my long standing suspicion

                                              [–]Salcha_00 65 points66 points  (3 children)

                                              Networking is great, but don’t not apply for jobs you are a good fit for.

                                              I have gotten many interviews and job offers from just applying via LinkedIn with no networking or connections. I have specific experience related to certain domains of healthcare technology, so that may be why. The more specific and in demand your skills and experience are, the greater the chance of getting traction for your application.

                                              [–]CraZKchick 53 points54 points  (2 children)

                                              This! We need to let go of the Boomer advice of "apply for every open job" and "walk into every place with a paper resume and ask if they are hiring. " That crap doesn't work anymore.

                                              I remember an employer telling me that I was one of two applicants that were actually qualified for the job out of hundreds of applications.

                                              [–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

                                              I'll add- read the entire job description and look for how they want you to apply. I'm interviewing for a job today that was advertised on LinkedIn but specifically said to email to apply instead of applying through the listing. Didn't stop 17 people from applying through LinkedIn!

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                                                [–]thebettermochi 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                                                First of all, thank you for doing this, and best wishes for you.

                                                Piggy-backing in this topic of referrals. Is there a difference in call-back rates regarding the "quality" of the referrals, e.g referrals from employees in a similar position vs from employees in another functions, or referrals from junior vs senior vs manager levels?

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                                                    [–]veridiousque 70 points71 points  (17 children)

                                                    You've talked about 'ageism' a few times in the comments section. Can you elaborate on this concept? Why has this become such a major problem? In tech, at what age are you considered old? Are certain roles better for more aged (and experienced) people? If you're hiring a Senior Dev, Director, or VP wouldn't you want them to have the relevant experience? How can 'ageism' be avoided?

                                                    [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 220 points221 points  (16 children)

                                                    Ageism is very very very real. It’s the realest form of discrimination in the us by far (edit: in hiring, specifically. Racism/sexism of course exist too). Practically legal, too.

                                                    Ageism is discrimination of people based on their age. Typically, this discrimination is against older people. Yes, you do see a lot of old boomers hating gen z. It pales in comparison to the discrimination leveled on the old.

                                                    Why does it exist? I’ll be blunt here and just list the prejudices (I don’t agree, this is just what they are): old people are slow, stupid, unwilling to adapt, take longer to train, have bad habits, have low motivation, won’t be hungry and desperate, will have higher salary expectations, don’t fit our youthful culture, can’t innovate, cost more in medical bills, take more leave for health, have busier outside lives like children, are more likely to harass women or be racist/homophobic, and remind us of death and we hate that.

                                                    In tech, it’s more extreme than elsewhere. If you can no longer pass off as someone in your thirties or younger, you are old.

                                                    Yes, for extremely senior roles like directors or vps of engineering, you’d expect a little older (even though they’d still prefer a rockstar younger person who somehow qualifies). But here’s the deal, there are way more people who will be over the age of 40 in tech then there are jobs like that available. Right now, nobody wants to hire them. This is going to come to a head in 10-20 years when a lot of millennial age folks start hitting these older ages.

                                                    How to avoid: don’t be old. You don’t have more than ten years of experience unless you are interviewing for those director roles. Remove dates from college graduation, remove everything before 2010, ideally 2015. Don’t bring it up. And try to avoid being jobless at that age, only make moves through referrals and stuff like that. Watch your back.

                                                    [–]No_Way4557 55 points56 points  (1 child)

                                                    I absolutely agree. I've worked in tech since the mid-80s. I've always been curious, energetic, pretty smart, and I get the big picture. I've always been a pretty good person, and I have better than average leadership instincts. Probably half of my career was in leadership positions, including a couple of director level positions. I've worked for some well-known companies. I never had a problem getting work until two things happened.

                                                    The big recession left me without a job in 2008, and I turned 50 at about the same time. I've always looked about 10 years younger, kept my skills mostly intact, and have never had an old man demeanor.

                                                    It took some time to realize that my career was dead and gone. But the message that ageism was a factor came pretty quickly.

                                                    Twice, I had phone interviews that went outstandingly well. I connected with the hiring manager on key issues, vision, fit, et al. But when i showed up for in person interviews, it was a very different story. Even the guy I'd vibed with on the phone was dry and perfunctory.

                                                    Another company turned me down for a younger candidate - twice - even though the hiring VP praised my big picture knowledge and business acumen. When the guy they chose only lasted a couple months, the VP called me back and told me how impressed he was with me. Then they proceeded to do the same thing. That guy lasted less than 3 weeks.

                                                    It was 3 & 1/2 years before I got a full-time job at substantially lower pay than I'd made since my twenties. On the other hand. My expenses were lower, too. We'd already been through foreclosure, bankruptcy, and auto repo.

                                                    But it is what it is. I bear ill will to no one except bankers and politicians. All of whom should be stripped of all worldly possessions and evicted onto the streets and alleys of the nearest large metropolis.

                                                    [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

                                                    So 40 is basically the cutoff between not old and old?

                                                    [–]veridiousque 23 points24 points  (0 children)

                                                    Thank you for the answer. This is very useful information!

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                                                      [–]brilliant-trash22 56 points57 points  (7 children)

                                                      Do you think companies will start to shift their stance more (in the next few years) on switching to WFH instead of working in office? Especially with workers pushing back on going into office?

                                                      [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 147 points148 points  (5 children)

                                                      Company owners will continue to push hybrid and in-office work until their profits and financial investments are no longer tied to the value of commercial real estate.

                                                      Time will tell. Wfh will be more common in the future than it used to be, but not necessarily the new normal. Depends on how those financial investments turn out.

                                                      [–]archiotterpup 46 points47 points  (4 children)

                                                      So it's less about the actual office space and more about their personal portfolio?

                                                      [–]hamsterwheelin 38 points39 points  (0 children)

                                                      Yes, this has always been the case. The ownership class often owns real estate in addition to businesses. Often they are tied to each other. Google around for it. Don't believe any of the wall street journal BS about productivity. This is about commercial real estate value potentially falling off a cliff.

                                                      Still a skeptic? Ask yourself this: if your company could make just as much money with you working from home, where they don't pay rent, heating, electric, Internet, etc - do you really think they'd pay for all that just to up your morale, or make some middle manager full of insecurities feel better by having you come into an office?? Hell, they barely want to pay for that "thank you" pizza 😂

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                                                          [–][deleted] 158 points159 points  (15 children)

                                                          If someone makes it known that they have a disability ahead of time, do they still get seriously considered, or is their resume tossed in the trash? I'm thinking along the lines of Migraines, Autism, ADHD etc.

                                                          [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 360 points361 points  (4 children)

                                                          Do not disclose disabilities if you can hide their existence pre-offer.

                                                          If you can’t hide it, then go explicit and look for companies that hire those folks. Most will try not to, but you’ll waste less time doing pity/cover our ass interviews.

                                                          I once worked with a candidate that was deaf. That alone made it nearly impossible to hire them anywhere, because companies did phone interviews and didn’t want to accommodate it. I couldn’t even get most them to consider it. My boss told me to give up.

                                                          Laziness, is all it takes for you to get excluded.

                                                          [–][deleted] 68 points69 points  (0 children)

                                                          People need to understand how trying it is for people (deaf, blind, etc) to get interviews and get offers. I know in my field they'd have such a hard time at it. Bums me out.

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                                                            [–]SyllabubOk4983 61 points62 points  (9 children)

                                                            Adding to this:

                                                            Even if you don't disclose things like ADHD & autism, what stereotypical things (ex. Not comfortable making eye contact) give it away? And/or what gives a bad impression that rub people wrong way they don't necessarily realize is related to things like autism?

                                                            For example--the face I make when listening intently (like for a complex question) can make me look scared or surprised since my eyebrows go up. I didn't realize I did it until I was in the middle of an interview and I felt my face relax after question ended. I've also been told some of my mannerisms can be interpreted as arogance when I'm in a neutral state.

                                                            [–]ChiefPastaOfficerYour job won't love you back 22 points23 points  (2 children)

                                                            For me, as an autistic, though it doesn't give it away, because of my country's shit stance on mental health, but definitely hurts my employment track record - appearing unemotional, not caring, not using body language, having a monotone voice. It's easy to brand me "weird" based on these traits, and in a few cases of has even cost me my job.

                                                            [–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (1 child)

                                                            Yo...I got a hack for that. I'm autistic, but didn't know until recently. I was an extreme introvert and was very socially awkward. I "learned" how to use the right facial expressions and mannerisms by copying what I was seeing on TV. I used a mirror to practice and make sure my face looked like the one on TV. 😂

                                                            I've worked for only fortune 500s so it worked enough to get by.

                                                            [–]FeminineImperative 81 points82 points  (4 children)

                                                            So the advice is to continue masking forever until I die. Got it.

                                                            [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 162 points163 points  (2 children)

                                                            I am sorry. I don’t think that is fair. I guess that’s my main point: none of this fair or just, it never was, the only thing I can do is tell you the truth and hopefully find ways to get around it. And also to say these systems are not, and never will be accurate measurements of your value as a human being.

                                                            [–]Fickle_Penguin 18 points19 points  (0 children)

                                                            I had an internal conversation with myself if I tell my boss I have ADHD. She's one of the good ones, but I decided if she hasn't already figured it out it will only hurt. So masking forever!

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                                                              [–]redherringaid 50 points51 points  (6 children)

                                                              I have multiple mental health challenges (CPTSD, Bipolar type 2, generalized anxiety disorder, ASD) and I'm in my 40s. How badly does this effect my prospects.

                                                              [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 168 points169 points  (5 children)

                                                              Bad. Ageism is very real, and explicit. They will use words like career trajectory internally to signal it. Never indicate you have more than ten years of experience, unless you are a super senior director or Vp level person. Lie and don’t put it on your resume.

                                                              My wife has similar mental health challenges, so I empathize with your situation.

                                                              It will get held against you. To be blunt, companies don’t like to deal with it, and will prejudge you to be incompetent and a legal risk. They also preferentially fire or layoff those with extensive medical needs as those people are expensive to employ (due to insurance premiums).

                                                              My advice would be to hide it from your employers and coworkers forever. And to remember that these are not just or fair systems, and your worth as a human shouldn’t be tied to them.

                                                              [–]redherringaid 24 points25 points  (0 children)

                                                              I suspected as much. I have a degree in illustration but am considering changing careers into something in UX/UI design. Any suggestions?

                                                              [–]garaks_tailor 17 points18 points  (0 children)

                                                              Yeap. I was laid of from two jobs because of a house fire. Never talk to anyone about anything

                                                              House burned and 3 weeks later I was let go and they wouldn't admit to why. Got another job 5 weeks later. Everything went swimmingly for 9 months. Then i mentioned we were still in the rebuild process and 3 weeks later let go.

                                                              [–]ifoundgodot 9 points10 points  (2 children)

                                                              In terms of only putting 10 years of experience to combat ageism, what do you do about your education? Leave it out entirely? Degree years seems like the easiest way to tell someone’s age.

                                                              [–]SkreechingEcho 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                                                              I always recommend to never put the years in your education. Say what degree you got from which school, leave it at that.

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                                                                [–]brilliant-trash22 37 points38 points  (5 children)

                                                                For an applicant, how and when do you ask about salary and benefits? How should an applicant counter-offer?

                                                                [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 109 points110 points  (4 children)

                                                                The reason you hear companies not wanting candidates to ask about comp early on is because they find it annoying and tedious, a waste of time. They don’t know if they want to hire you, so they don’t care what you want or expect. They also are weirdly prideful about themselves as a great option. They don’t want you to feel like you are shopping for the best deal when looking for a job - they want you to feel lucky to be considered. Recruiters will sometimes pass on you if you seem like you’ll be a headache to negotiate with (especially if they are in a payment structure where the more you make, the less they do. This is uncommon, though).

                                                                It’s stupid, but that’s why. If you have leverage, ask early, but nicely. “Just curious what range we’re thinking about?”. If you don’t, but you want the gig, wait until they want you and bring it up.

                                                                [–]PussyLunch 41 points42 points  (4 children)

                                                                Best thing to do during an interview to get the job?

                                                                [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 118 points119 points  (0 children)

                                                                Give thoughtful answers that contain data, results, details, and impact. Provide specific examples, or make them up entirely. Show you are interested and engaged, smile, act like this is fun. And if you are really nervous, say so, and try to breathe. Nothing is as important as your brains chemistry tries to convince you it is.

                                                                [–]slappy_mcslapenstein 11 points12 points  (2 children)

                                                                What I have done in the past is looked up on Google some of the most common interview questions for a particular field and then rehearsed responses to them. The result is I get offered the job more often than not.

                                                                [–]pennyauntie 41 points42 points  (1 child)

                                                                At some tipping point, the broken hiring system will become too costly for the country. Increased homelessness, inability to maintain consumer purchasing, massive poverty and loss of faith in capitalism.

                                                                Do you see any event in the future that force this system to become more fair? It's too brutal for the working classes. Doesn't seem sustainable.

                                                                [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 83 points84 points  (0 children)

                                                                End capitalism. Or get close enough to ending it that they make a better deal.

                                                                Not unlikely to come to a head, also not likely to be a painless event.

                                                                [–]theVeryLast7 72 points73 points  (2 children)

                                                                Why don’t you send rejection letters to unsuccessful applicants? Even a boilerplate email would be more polite than nothing

                                                                [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 112 points113 points  (1 child)

                                                                I do. Or did.

                                                                The reason why many places don’t is this process gives no shits about you, especially if they aren’t going to hire you. That plus scale (hundreds/thousands of rejections) means the 10 seconds it takes to set up and send an email equates to 2000 seconds for all, and now it’s chunks of time. A lot of systems have no automatic rejection email set up - or are stupid and nobody puts in time to figure out how to do it. Bottom line is nobody cares about you, that recruiter has a boss banging on the table for more candidates, and they move on because you can’t help them. It’s never personal - and for something like hiring, maybe that’s the problem.

                                                                For me, I set up automated ejection emails and sent them for applicants, and personalized emails/calls for anyone that got further along. Definitely missed a few over the years, and definitely got yelled at for wasting my time doing that.

                                                                [–]Fuck_You_Downvote 33 points34 points  (2 children)

                                                                It’s been three weeks since I had the first interview with the hiring manager, just followed up with recruiter about next steps. How fucked am I?

                                                                [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 74 points75 points  (1 child)

                                                                Most likely your out.

                                                                Sometimes hiring managers truly don’t give a shit about hiring and will not provide feedback quickly. This is really, really normal. Sometimes they wait forever and say yes. Most companies have a stupid hiring process and going slow is a result.

                                                                Sometimes it is a no, and the recruiter is waiting to see if they can change that decision/find another opportunity for you before calling.

                                                                But usually, this means your out. Just assume that and go forward from there. You should never have your eyes set on any one opportunity anyway.

                                                                [–]stefiscool 36 points37 points  (5 children)

                                                                If a department is 80% female, and the management team is 80% male, and 75% of the men on the team are in management, including three that were promoted from the team, two of whom were newer than the female applicants, how can they find that there is no gender discrimination?

                                                                [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 110 points111 points  (2 children)

                                                                Because companies don’t think about gender discrimination in terms of whether there is gender discrimination. They think in terms of what they can get sued for, and what they can promote as positive pr. They truly don’t give a shit about the ethics. Individuals might - the money doesn’t. And money is in charge, always.

                                                                In your example, you could say the men are being preferenced for advancement. The company can say “look how diverse we are, 80% women, we are an empowered and inclusive team”.

                                                                [–]ThrowawayLDS_7gen 27 points28 points  (0 children)

                                                                The golden rule. Those who have the gold, make them rules.

                                                                [–]stefiscool 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                                                                And here I thought I was just being facetious when I made sarcastic comments under my breath, turns out I was pretty darn close to the truth

                                                                [–]Diamond_Hands420 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                                                                They will use disingenuous reasons to justify the unjustifiable, I’ve seen it first hand many times.

                                                                [–]Effective-Penaltyhere for the memes 64 points65 points  (15 children)

                                                                What is it with the stupid cover letter?

                                                                [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 74 points75 points  (3 children)

                                                                Idk. They are stupid and tbh I never, ever read them as a recruiter.

                                                                Maybe they matter more in other fields. I’d spend way less time on it though, because I don’t know anyone who gives a shit.

                                                                [–]_Cyber_Mage 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                                                                I've been on a few hiring panels, and we ONLY looked at the cover letter if the candidate looked good from their resume but didn't meet the requirements to be able to interview them. For example, if experience with Office 365 Security was a hard requirement, and their resume only mentioned 'email security'.

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                                                                    [–]supermouse35 32 points33 points  (5 children)

                                                                    I'm 57 and self-employed. I've been looking around for a job that will provide some income security and pick up the cost of my health insurance, maybe supplement my retirement savings. Barring health conditions and accidents, I figure I'm looking at at least 13 more years of work before I can even think about retirement (perhaps more). I currently have 35 years of experience in my field and I can't even get a nibble from any of the companies I've applied for. I'm thinking it's because of my age, am I right?

                                                                    [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 43 points44 points  (4 children)

                                                                    Yes. I mentioned else where some ways around it. But I’m sorry, you are being discriminated against.

                                                                    Might recommend finding ways to make money on your own. They don’t want you anymore.

                                                                    [–]supermouse35 25 points26 points  (2 children)

                                                                    That's hard to hear but thank you for the reply.

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                                                                      [–]muxman 24 points25 points  (3 children)

                                                                      Tell us the best way to answer some important questions that feel like they are a trap to screw you over and out of the job.

                                                                      Like when they don't post a pay range or rate for a job, but then ask you what you're looking for in pay.

                                                                      Or what are your strengths or weaknesses.

                                                                      What are they really looking for in answers to questions like those and other similar "trap" type questions?

                                                                      [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 59 points60 points  (2 children)

                                                                      Weaknesses - they are asking for an example of how you have grown through challenge. I was naturally a messy kid, and not organized. When I started working, I realized i needed to work on it. So I bought a planner, and started making daily to-do lists. And once a month I review all my folders and tidy everything up. Once I committed to being better, I was on top of everything and even got commended for remembering xx thing.

                                                                      [–]muxman 14 points15 points  (1 child)

                                                                      It's one of those questions you get often but it seems to weird to me. It's like any answer will just sound made up or silly. It always feels like a setup for them to find a stupid reason to turn you down.

                                                                      [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 40 points41 points  (0 children)

                                                                      It is silly. Just forget the word weakness and give an answer about how you have improved yourself.

                                                                      [–]thechilecowboy 27 points28 points  (1 child)

                                                                      Great take on everything, OP! Thank you very much.

                                                                      [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 21 points22 points  (0 children)

                                                                      Appreciate it.

                                                                      [–]jessewalker2 44 points45 points  (9 children)

                                                                      Do they keep old applications on file to see if you apply again later?

                                                                      [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 45 points46 points  (8 children)

                                                                      Yes. Pretty much everywhere.

                                                                      [–]thejmkool 15 points16 points  (6 children)

                                                                      Do they ever actually pull up those old applications when posting a new job? Or is it simply buried on a server somewhere to be flagged if you apply again?

                                                                      [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 22 points23 points  (3 children)

                                                                      Sometimes we do, if it’s a niche job. It’s more like when we look at your new application, it’s in the same profile as your old one, so we can see what happened there.

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                                                                          [–]hohmeisw 20 points21 points  (5 children)

                                                                          Are unique or standard resumes more likely to get a response?

                                                                          What signs should you look for to continue pursuing vs write a company off?

                                                                          What to look for that indicates a job post is not actually looking to hire?

                                                                          What is the best way to negotiate pay and benefits (sorry if this isn't applicable to your experience)?

                                                                          [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 72 points73 points  (4 children)

                                                                          Simple, clean, qualified. That resume gets attention. Remove excess, distractions, extras. They don’t care you are an eclectic human being with varied skills and interests. They care if you are worth talking to about a specific job, nothing more. And they will spend under 10 seconds deciding.

                                                                          Look at blind for reviews, look at levels fyi for comp info, find friends who work there to give you the straight dope. Define your standards for work and stick to them, drop what doesn’t, and have no loyalty. Don’t be afraid to move one after a few years if it’s not the best. Decide in 4 weeks if you want to stay. Then stay at least a year if you do. Go from there.

                                                                          [–]SpiceyMugwumpMomma 21 points22 points  (4 children)

                                                                          I have a child graduating college with great grades in an engineering field. He’ll be shopping that first job soon.

                                                                          He’s graduating in the Deep South, but interested in living in the west or maybe Texas. He wants a role in one of these companies that have the multi year shop you around training program for new grads.

                                                                          But he isn’t at one of the schools where his target companies recruit. But he’s a great candidate (aka, Brown with high grades and real work experience).

                                                                          What is the right way to get in touch with these companies to get into the pool for consideration?

                                                                          [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 38 points39 points  (1 child)

                                                                          Good luck to your child.

                                                                          He should find and attend networking meet ups. Fly out, find virtual ones, find ones that are kinda relevant, go to several. There are thousands of these things, just google around and you’ll find some.

                                                                          They are tacky and dumb events, but he will meet people and connections grow over time. You never know where it can lead, and when you see this young, it’s infinitely better to have ones that lead nowhere you want than to have none at all. Only takes one referral to get into a good spot.

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                                                                            [–]grandramble 22 points23 points  (1 child)

                                                                            JobScan keeps telling me to change the verb tense on keywords from the job listing (eg it'll ding me for not having the word "manage" in enough but the word "managed" will be in there 5-6 times). Are ATS systems really that picky and bad at recognizing content?

                                                                            [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 36 points37 points  (0 children)

                                                                            Yes. ATS systems are very very dumb. This one sounds particularly dumb.

                                                                            [–]NonreciprocatingHole 19 points20 points  (2 children)

                                                                            With the "workers" market of a couple years ago where the "nobody wants to work anymore" attitude rose up again, and now it's more of a "nobody wants to hire anymore", are employers intentionally not filling open roles just to stick it to the working class?

                                                                            [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 81 points82 points  (1 child)

                                                                            Owners vs workers. The owners are in charge and will defend their interests to the fullest. That said, owners aren’t a cabal. They are individuals who more or less act in step with the interests of their class.

                                                                            I don’t think there is a grand conspiracy where owners meet in council to decide how to screw us over. More that the steps to screw us over are obvious and they all more or less adhere to that.

                                                                            And yes, they are intentionally trying to bring the job market down. Workers need to be desperate to work, in order to keep wages suppressed, but also to keep workers rights and workers movements in disarray. Profit is important, but control over profit making is way more important.

                                                                            [–]dragodracini 19 points20 points  (5 children)

                                                                            So, I've always wondered. Does sending a follow-up thank you actually help the prospective hire?

                                                                            What about being up front about mental illness, if one exists? All over the disclaimer surveys include anxiety and PTSD, but what do those actually do for the prospective hire?

                                                                            [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 47 points48 points  (4 children)

                                                                            It does. Not much. Won’t fix it if you blew the interview. But if you did well, now they are even more excited.

                                                                            Never ever disclose mental illness unless it’s something you have no ability to hide.

                                                                            [–]tomqvaxy 22 points23 points  (2 children)

                                                                            I’m hoping this is embellished or west coast specific because I’m 47 year old woman looking for a new job and it turns out I’m dead? I can’t edit down my resume to ten years. That would put one job on it. Fuck the whole human race. I mean first they’re afraid you might have a baby but if you’ve reached an age where that’s unlikely they don’t want you either? Glad I’m in the arts I guess. I can show my work. Bury me with it I guess. See you in the gutters.

                                                                            [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 19 points20 points  (1 child)

                                                                            It’s not west coast specific. Slightly more tech industry focused.

                                                                            Arts is likely a little less influenced by these things because it’s less traditionally corporate. I hope you find your next thing and enjoy it.

                                                                            [–]jayjaygee85 16 points17 points  (3 children)

                                                                            Why do companies go through paying an on-market premium and 6-12 month retraining process when they could just pay the incumbent staff member a retention premium to their current below market wage?

                                                                            [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 23 points24 points  (1 child)

                                                                            Hiring is about expansion and investment.

                                                                            Retention is about cost control. Company has different mindsets going into both.

                                                                            It is stupid and encourages disloyalty. You should follow their lead.

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                                                                              [–]ddog6900 33 points34 points  (2 children)

                                                                              Can you be blacklisted?

                                                                              I feel like I am blacklisted by a large tech company in my area after working for the 3PL that services them. I know several people that work for them still and always have recommendations and references. I have yet to get another interview after making it through 4 rounds the first time I applied 4 years ago. My former recruiter has gone on to bigger and better things but I was told I wasn’t hired because they ran out of headcount at the time.

                                                                              [–]padster1310 15 points16 points  (3 children)

                                                                              My wife is 26, just married, very qualified and can't find a job, do companies decide not to hire her cause they think she'll have kids soon?

                                                                              [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 28 points29 points  (0 children)

                                                                              Sometimes yes. What kind of jobs?

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                                                                                [–]Zhanji_TS 13 points14 points  (2 children)

                                                                                So I had a recruiter call me a few times for a job at a large gaming company. I was a perfect fit for the role. Each time he called it seemed like he wasn’t even paying attention to what I was saying even though he was asking me questions. On the third call he said he was speaking with the company that day and asked if I was still available. Never heard back. Are they that overwhelmed that they just aren’t paying attention and never follow up?

                                                                                [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 27 points28 points  (1 child)

                                                                                Yes. Lots of recruiters are extremely overworked, or dealing with a lot of shit at once.

                                                                                And many others are also terrible at their job. It sounds like you were talking to agency recruiter. So most likely they are terrible at their job. Those places are basically cold call floors filled with warm bodies and desperate poor souls.

                                                                                [–]DimentoGraven 10 points11 points  (6 children)

                                                                                I didn't think a termination agreement that limited your speech could be enforceable if they aren't paying a significant severance, am I wrong?

                                                                                [–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (2 children)

                                                                                Is it always better to apply to jobs posted recently like within the last couple days? And ignore anything older than a couple weeks?

                                                                                [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 28 points29 points  (1 child)

                                                                                Apply to everything and expect nothing. Spend more time pinging people directly on LinkedIn. Download text expanders to copy and paste message templates to say hello and network.

                                                                                [–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (7 children)

                                                                                Are we moving away from recruiters in house and outsourcing? Or just going back to the old days?

                                                                                [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 109 points110 points  (6 children)

                                                                                Interesting question. I’d say, like most office jobs, automation has changed a lot.

                                                                                I’d argue, however, that we aren’t moving away from recruiters as much as we are moving away from the concept of direct employment.

                                                                                Roughly 50% of employees at Google are contractors. They don’t get google stock, google benefits. They don’t get big severance packages or pto. When they are no longer needed, google just stops cutting a check to the agency employing those people.

                                                                                It’s great for corporations, because labor is a huge expense (and comes with risks - lawsuits, unemployment, disability claims, medical benefits). By making even a contractor, they have less rights, and are a more controllable cost. Corporations want to turn labor into the same kind of relationship they have with physical supplies or resources: pay for order, sell/scrap/turn off when not needed. In order to do that, they need to offload employment to someone else.

                                                                                Agencies can turn employment into a profitable enterprise, and the transition to contract-for-all is well underway.

                                                                                [–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (1 child)

                                                                                True that's been known for a long time and it's increasingly becoming more normalized. I'm just saying most recruiting in my opinion is like a car salesman at a dealership. They don't really have a place but to be the middle man and try to convince you to either work there or not and kinda push you elsewhere. I wouldn't say automation but maybe recruiters aren't really pulling their weight so to say? Idk working with them and begging them for a job seems to give me the impression that 1 bad apple seems to spoil the bunch unfortunately and yes corporations realize that you're just another 'cost' center.

                                                                                [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 36 points37 points  (0 children)

                                                                                Yep, very true. Recruiters are a resource companies use to accelerate hiring volume growth, and (in theory) increase quality of hires.

                                                                                Gotta remember, the people who employ recruiters are the same people who employ you - and they don’t give a shit about you. At all.

                                                                                So the value of a recruiter (similar to a car salesman) is not something the candidate sees or benefits from. That value flows upward.

                                                                                And yes, we are a cost center. Very true. As is all hiring.

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                                                                                  [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  Is there somekind of alternate international hiring database witha candidate blacklist? I just cant find anything

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 20 points21 points  (0 children)

                                                                                  No. There is no grand conspiracy. Companies don’t share info like that.

                                                                                  Companies will blacklist candidates internally though.

                                                                                  [–]Level_Strain_7360 10 points11 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  Thank you for being so open here. I am so sorry you got laid off- I have been too.

                                                                                  One question about resume format- are a few bullets of highlighted accomplishments at the top helpful to include or not?

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

                                                                                  If it’s super relevant yes, and if they are real accomplishments yes. Especially if those are things you didn’t do in your most recent job.

                                                                                  If not it’s a waste of premium space.

                                                                                  [–]DedBirdGonnaPutItOnU 9 points10 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  What percentage of the jobs posted already had a candidate in mind? That they just posted it to "make it legal" but had no intentions of hiring anyone external?

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

                                                                                  Some for sure. Not always. It’s just that an internal transfer is way easier to do, so when that option pops up, hiring managers usually take it.

                                                                                  [–]zuckerzeit 8 points9 points  (2 children)

                                                                                  I’m surprised this one hasn’t been asked yet: what do you advise regarding gaps on one’s resume? How badly do they look to recruiters/employers/HR? How can someone spruce it up convincingly so it looks good or at least doesn’t look as bad?

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 19 points20 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  Some places don’t care, other places really care. More likely they care if you make under 60k.

                                                                                  Two things that can look bad are big gaps, and short stints. Have reasons ready to go. Imo, a gap has better explanations than a short stint. You could have had a sick family member, or something. So maybe it’s better if that job never existed.

                                                                                  [–]Sad-Belt-3492 10 points11 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  Wow they fired the people who do the hiring,not a good sign

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 24 points25 points  (0 children)

                                                                                  Recruiting is usually running about 3-6 months ahead of the business. When we get laid off, general layoffs are about 3 months away max.

                                                                                  [–]XediDC 7 points8 points  (3 children)

                                                                                  What did the given you to agree to those termination terms, roughly speaking? Seems like it would have to be a lot.

                                                                                  [–]MentorMonkey 9 points10 points  (2 children)

                                                                                  One thing that is quick to impress a recruiter, and one thing that is quick to send your resume to the dumpster?

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 35 points36 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  On a call? Be interested, be a human, be nice. Recruiters get shit on all day. Yelled at by their boss, their hiring managers, the candidates. And yes, many of them suck.

                                                                                  But general advice, be nice to people, and they are more likely to be nice to you. Odds are if they talk to people on a phone for a living, they are part of the same working class as you.

                                                                                  [–]MentorMonkey 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                                                                                  Thanks for sharing. Also, I am sorry to hear you were laid off. However, based on your helpfulness and intelligent responses, I am sure you will not be without a position long. Good luck!

                                                                                  [–]dood5426 7 points8 points  (2 children)

                                                                                  Did you ever go through indeed applications? Are they any semblance of looked through?

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 12 points13 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  Not in my recent jobs. But I did at a staffing agency.

                                                                                  Indeed is a giant resume database masquerading as a jobs page. Put something on there, and try to contact companies directly.

                                                                                  [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  The ol googly schmoogly

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                                                                                  Don’t be evil!

                                                                                  [–]NimueArt 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                                                                                  How should an applicant go about getting the best compensation package? I always feel that the initial offer is lowball.

                                                                                  [–]tracksloth 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  I dont get termination agreements. The terms are always in favor of the company. How do they enforce an NDA post-termination? What do you get out of it - just the promise of a reference?

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 19 points20 points  (0 children)

                                                                                  Most legal documents when it comes to hiring and termination are designed to restrict your rights as a worker, and make it harder for you to successfully sue a company. They are not ironclad - but do put up a roadblock you have to clear if you do sue or break the agreement.

                                                                                  For NDA’s, yes you can get sued if you break them. I have never, ever seen it happen. I’d say if you make under 150k, they won’t sue you ever. It’s only worth suing if they can get more money than it costs to sue you.

                                                                                  [–]Ok-Bit8368 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  How terrified are companies of employees forming or joining a union?

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 24 points25 points  (0 children)

                                                                                  Less terrified than they should be. The tech industry should unionize now, while workers have relatively large amounts of leverage compared to the rest of the us workforce.

                                                                                  Companies really, really, really do not want you to unionize. As a recruiter I don’t really touch this stuff. But yeah, they really don’t want you to.

                                                                                  [–]fortifier22 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  1.) Is it true that companies won't hire people they think are over-qualified or won't want to stick around long-term? For example, Walmart and a lot of minimum wage places would rather hire high school graduates and not, say, university and college educated folk since high school graduates are more likely to stick around...?

                                                                                  2.) Is it true that nepotism becomes more common the higher paying and the more authority a job has?

                                                                                  3.) In your opinion, is there truly a shortage of labour, or just a shortage of exploitable employees for companies?

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

                                                                                  1. Yes, it’s absolutely true. Managers are lazy, and hiring is expensive and annoying as fuck. All the interviews, withdrawals, no call no shows…they do not want to have to keep going back to this. So they will prejudicially exclude candidates they feel have a high likelihood of ditching for something better. Sometimes this reason is also ageism related, sometimes the manager just vibes better with high school grads. College grads are too smart and educated and will ask questions, while the high school grads will just be happy to have a job. <— what the manager thinks.

                                                                                  2. It’s less about nepotism and more about political hiring in general. Allies, supporters/friends, relatives…etc. Yes, the higher it goes, the more political it is.

                                                                                  3. Workforce is not a monolith. Huge nursing shortage, way too many actors. Workers should unionize in either scenario. The only ally in your company is your coworker - that’s why everything is set up to make you two compete for everything.

                                                                                  [–]Mythril_Bullets 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                                                                                  Thanks for all the information you’ve provided. I’ve basically digested a bunch of your comments and ultimately it boils down to two major concepts:

                                                                                  Don’t be fucking old.

                                                                                  Fuck cover letters.

                                                                                  But if you’re still replying to these, can you speak to, or know anyone you’re acquainted with that if your anecdotal experiences apply to most career fields and recruiters or primarily tech? My area of concern is healthcare and hospitals, if that matters. Thanks so much if you take the time.

                                                                                  [–]EVChicinNJ 21 points22 points  (7 children)

                                                                                  Have you ever used one person's resume to boost another candidate?

                                                                                  [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 29 points30 points  (5 children)

                                                                                  Can you explain? Do you mean like, show a resume that I know isn’t good to make an ok resume look better?

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                                                                                    [–]RunningPirate 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                                                                                    Do they even know what the bell they’re doing?

                                                                                    [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 28 points29 points  (0 children)

                                                                                    Nobody does.

                                                                                    [–]Falconpunch3 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                                                                                    Past jobs, references, diplomas, any history besides criminal-- how much do they care or look into? How much can you just straight up lie on your resume?

                                                                                    [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

                                                                                    Companies will tell you what they will check for before you sign an offer. They are required to.

                                                                                    If they are doing employment/education verifications, they will track it down (they hire a company that does this usually, or if they are small an hr person calls). Paystubs and diplomas form you speed that up.

                                                                                    Some companies go further and do backchannel references, which means they look until the find someone who can tell them what it was like to work with you. Very unethical, nothing you can do besides be nice to everyone beforehand .

                                                                                    Your one advantage is if they are doing this stuff, it’s because they want to hire you. They want you to pass and usually won’t look too deep.

                                                                                    [–]KC_Kahn 5 points6 points  (4 children)

                                                                                    A well known tech company laid off its entire internal recruiting team? What's the strategy here?

                                                                                    I've seen this happen with startups and smaller companies. I've seen small recruiting teams jump ship together, and VCs taking over recruiting for a portfolio company, but I can't remember ever seeing something like this.

                                                                                    [–]ContemptibleSheeter[S] 14 points15 points  (2 children)

                                                                                    Guess not all. A skeleton crew remains. But I assume it means they don’t plan to hire as much. Or they are switching to using agency recruiters.

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                                                                                      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                                                                      OP is clutch. Thank you, and best wishes.

                                                                                      [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                                                                                      Does my LinkedIn have to be fake professional looking or can I actually show a bit of personality in it? My new feed makes me sick on how fake and spamming the platform is.

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